Kanner's syndrome V Asperger syndrome

[PaulSpeaks]

I would have been diagnosed in the early 1960's with what could be described a classic Kanner's syndrome. That is I had a profound lack of affective contact with others and ritualized bahavior and a lack of imagination.
Is is true that Kanners only differs from Aspergers because it cover a much broader range on the spectrum from being non-verbal and profoundly mentally retarded to a very high function genius. Whereas Aspergers only covers high end where there is no language delay at childhood. (I did have a major language delay at childhood be the way).
Or is there a distinct separation these days of Kanner's autism and Asperger's autism. Kanners now only covers the low end and Aspergers the high end?

Paul

[beau99]

Most specialists do not differentiate between high-end Kanner's and Asperger's.

Ironically, most of Asperger's first patients were non-verbal, while most of Kanner's first patients had no language issues at all.

[nutbag]

Personally, I think that ASDs are more than a spectrum. I think that a landscape is required to map out autism.

Imagine a tic tac toe wherein one dimension marks out cognitive finctipn, and the other autistic function, with low moderaye and high for each.

At this point we could assign numbers or letters to each cell to describe some specific and logically related type of autism.

My guess is that persons in any square qould be more nearly related to each other than to those in other squares.

The definitions could be better - more precise - and treatments also better prescribed.

Kanner's versus Asperger,s is imprecise and oversimplified.

[Callista]

By current definitions:

If you had speech delay or developmental delay, then you have Kanner's autism. Otherwise, Asperger's. Many people who qualify for Asperger's also qualify for Kanner's, by DSM-IV, but the differential diagnosis hinges on IQ and speech delay.

I think it's a silly distinction, too. Consider two identical adults, equal in every ability. But because one learned to speak at age 2 and the other at age 5, one is called Asperger's and the other has Kanner's autism.

Very possible to have people with Kanner's being more high-functioning than many people with Asperger's, because if you have a speech delay you're automatically not an Aspie.

Compare me to my dad, and you have a typical case of an Aspie functioning at a lower level than classical autistic. My dad learned to speak at age 4--a speech delay. But he also had an IQ of 160 or thereabouts, lived on his own at 18, got a degree, married, and had a successful career as an engineer. (He was also very eccentric, so it's not like he just got rid of autism when he learned to speak.) On the other hand, there's me: Learned to speak on time, but an IQ of only 130-ish, combined with sensory problems and strong autistic traits. I'm living on my own for the first time at age 24, have trouble with employment, and haven't gotten through college yet. I will, of course--just give me time--but I'll do it later than my dad did. Whether I'll do better or worse remains to be seen.

My own approach to the categorization problem would be to just list the entire PDD category as "autism", and then list subcategories along the lines of the most prominent features: "Autism with speech delay", "autism with developmental delay"... As the child grows, he can lose what comes after the "with" as he learns to speak or catches up to his peers or whatever. It's the same sort of thing they already do with ADHD; they give it subtypes, like this: ADHD (Inattentive), ADHD (Hyperactive/Impulsive), ADHD (Combined). As a child with ADHD (Combined) grows, he generally loses the hyperactivity and impulsivity (through learning and coping strategies) and becomes ADHD (Inattentive). It would really simplify the autism diagnosis to do something like that with it.

[PaulSpeaks]

Here is one such example of case 8 in Kanner's research
http://www.neurodiversity.com/library_kanner_1943.pdf


Alfred, upon entering the office, paid no attention to the examiner. He immediately spotted a train in the toy cabinet, took it out, and connected and disconnected the cars in a slow, monotonous manner. He kept saying many times, “More train-more train-more train.” He repeatedly “counted”the car windows: “One, two windows-one, two windows-one, two windows-four window, eight window, eigth windows.” He could not in any way be distracted from the trains. A Binet test was attempted in a room in which there were no trains. It was possible with much difficulty to pierce form time to time through his preoccupations. He finally complied in most instances in a manner that clearly indicated that he wanted to get through with the particular intrusion; this was repeated with each individual item of the task. In the end he achieved an IQ of 140.

[bullet]

Most specialists do not differentiate between high-end Kanner's and Asperger's.

Ironically, most of Asperger's first patients were non-verbal, while most of Kanner's first patients had no language issues at all.

Well, they were definitely verbal, but they were differences in language compared to the majority of other children. EG:


"When he desired to get down after his nap, he said, "Boo[his word for his mother], say 'Don, do you want to get down?'"

His mother would comply, and Don would say: "Now say 'All right.'"

The mother did, and Don got down. At mealtime, repeating something that had obviously been said to him often, he said to his mother, "Say' Eat it or I won't give you tomatoes, but if you don't eat it I will give you tomatoes,'" or " Say 'If you drink to there, I'll laugh and I 'll smile,'"

Tom is starting to do something similar now, when he wants to tell us something he will say what he thinks the other person would say. So, instead of saying:
"I am drawing a teletubby"
he'll say:
"what are you doing?"
If he is given something he says:
"What do you say? Thank you!"
and often, if he wants something he says:
"What do you want?".

Another example from Kanner's descriptions:
"When he responded to questions or commands at all, he did so by repeating them echolalia fashion."

Tom does this as well a lot of the time, unless he can see the object.

[Callista]

It's a pretty logical step to take, though! He's connecting words said to actions taken, and when he does those things he says the words! Now all he needs is to figure out grammar.

[bullet]

Aye :).
There is a minimum character requirement on this forum! I didn't know that.

[Age926]

Personally i think everything should be under autism spectrum disorder, either severe, moderate, or high functioning.

Kanners vs aspergers...
Kanners usually have a below-normal IQ
while Aspergers have a normal-above IQ
Kanners usually have a delay in speech
Aspergers usually don't

Kanners is actually an older term now, now its autistic disorder, or aspergers disorder, or pdd-nos. Basically, you got a delay, your IQ is either below or average, your diagnosed autistic disorder. If not either you get the diagnosis of Aspergers. Pdd-nos, now if the child has autistic traits, but isn't fitting the criteria of either of those two diagnosis's, could be more severe then both, or could be more mild!

This is what the new criteria is...http://www.ourspecialkids.org/criteria.html

I think in the future, this is what people will read when looking for signs of autism spectrum disorder...http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/symptoms.htm#possible

[PaulSpeaks]

I have read one thing that sets Aspergers apart from other forms of classical autism is the poor motor skills, awkward gait and stooped posture with good language skills and speaking like a little professor. With classical autism it is often the reverse.
I am a mixture of the two. I do have a stooped posture but I have never been renowned for my language skills. In fact my language was very much delayed.

[Callista]

I never had bad posture; I think that might come from social phobia (trying to make yourself seem smaller). I have the weirdest combination though: Gross-motor dyspraxia; good fine-motor skills!

Actually, I have been thinking it might not actually be dyspraxia, but motor planning: Rather than having problems completing various movements or figuring out where my body is in space, I have problems planning and coordinating them. Once I've learned a movement, it's easy for me; but it takes me a long time to learn it. And when it comes to having to "improvise" different movements in response to fast-moving events, such as with team sports or driving a car, I'm nearly hopeless!--despite being average at individual sports that don't involve such "surprises", such as swimming.

I still can't figure out why my motor-planning issues don't really seem to apply when I'm working with my fingers. Maybe it's just that the things I do with my fingers are things you have to practice first, like writing, typing, playing an instrument, crochet, needlepoint... Or else the area of my brain which controls my fingers is unusually efficient. (Different parts of the motor cortex control different parts of the body.) It could be practice--though I seem to learn at the same rate as others. Or it could be that the smallness of the movements means that they are somehow processed differently.

Anyway, dyspraxia isn't diagnostic by any definition of Asperger's; it's the language skills that matter. Many Aspies don't have dyspraxia, and some Kanner's autistics do.

Autism triad: Language, social interaction, repetitive behavior. Autism with only mild impairments in language: Asperger's. There really should be names for variants with only mild impairment in social interaction, or with only mild repetitive behavior; because I know they exist. My mom, an OT, works with a kid who's nonverbal and bangs his head--but nevertheless makes eye contact and attempts to communicate. He probably has a PDD-NOS diagnosis, but I'd call it "autism without social impairment"... I imagine there are kids who have language delay and social impairment but no repetitive behavior, too... For me, the repetitive behavior is the major part of autism--strangely, it's also simultaneously my greatest impairment and my greatest asset!

I still think it's just plain stupid to try to categorize autism by what happened in childhood--whether you regressed, whether you had a speech delay. Later on, those things can even out and end up indistinguishable; there's nothing you can do to find out whether I had a speech delay or not, except to ask me or my mom. Sure, the history is important, but I don't see why it should play such a large role in the diagnosis of a disorder with a life-long course!

That it's so hard to tell apart the categories on the autism spectrum tells me something: There shouldn't be categories. The autism spectrum is huge, and the range of symptoms is huge; but there aren't any clear dividing lines. I say we copy the labeling system they have for schizophrenia, and simply classify it all as 'autism' with subtypes by main feature.

(Explanation: If you've ever studied schizophrenia, it's a lot like that: A huge spectrum of possible symptoms; a huge spectrum of possible functioning levels; but it's all got one name, and a lot of subtypes. Some people call it "the schizophrenias" and think they ought to divide schizophrenia up into its subtypes (catatonic, paranoid, disorganized, combined); but there are so many people with undifferentiated schizophrenia, not to mention stuff like schizoaffective disorder, that you'd end up with half of them being diagnosed with something like "psychotic disorder NOS"! Same problem you have with autism, now. A similar system is in place for ADHD, as well; but ADHD is a smaller range.)

[BrendaLee]

I love this topic!

I'm just a Mom ... I hope it's okay that I jump in ... I don't mean to be a party crasher. :o I've just really been dying to discuss this subject with ASD adults. :)

I have my own theories with how I'd like to see the diagnostic criteria change .. but for now ... as it is, I think there's two very distinct differences between Classic Autism and Aspergers.

#1 = Communication
#2 = Cognitive Development, Self-Help and appropriate Play Skills.

Now remember, the diagnostic criteria are written for children ... typically as young as 2 or 3 ... in my son's case he was 18 months. So ... we're talking about appropriate communication skills for the child at that age group based on language evaluation instruments preformed by SLPs ... not by observation alone. Also, we're talking about the appropriate cognition for a toddler or kid under 5 yo ... the curiosity necessary to explore ones environment, the self-help skills that should be developing, that type of thing.

When you're talking about two kids, both two years old ... there's a FLAMING difference between the Classic Autistic and the Asperger's kid. Although I don't think it's always the case with the PDD-NOS kid.

Clinically speaking ... in Autism there is ALWAYS a HUGE communication issue! No non-verbal attempts at communication ... no desire to communicate ... even if verbal, it's not used as a form to communicate with another, to initiate interaction or to request an item. Whereas in Asperger's there CAN NOT be this type of communication delay. In Asperger's, single-word requests or labeling by the age of 2 is technically not considered a 'clinically significant delay'.

In addition ... with Aspergers ... the child must demonstrate age appropriate cognition skills ... self-help skills and appropriate play skills.

For me, it's not about the fact that both labels have much in common ... it's about the fact that in order to receive a diagnosis of Asperger's the child CAN NOT be SIGNIFICANTLY impaired in the areas of communication, cognition, self-help and/or play skills. It's not about a child's potential to learn these things at which time the two labels don't look much different. It's about diagnosising a severe developmental issue ... by two years old a typically developmenting child should not be experiencing the complex combination of delays that are defined as Autism.

There's nothing that says that an Autistic MUST be cognitively delayed ... BUT it clearly states that an Aspie CAN NOT be cognitively delayed. In other words ... if all criteria are met but the child is cognitively delayed they should technically be diagnosed as Autistic ... WHY ... because there is no guarantee that therapy might address the cognitive delay therefore the child may always be cognitively delayed.

The problem with the diagnosis is that it doesn't work as well when diagnosing older spectrumers. You can't do a language assessment on a 20 year old and get an accurate picture of what their language skills at 2 years old were like ... other than parental report ... and frankly, that's unreliable compared to giving the same assessment to a two year old.

Plus ... High Functioning is not an official diagnosis ... it's just Autism. The whole High Functioning thing is something people like to throw around instead of saying, "my kid doesn't fit the standard stereotypical picture of the non-verbal, self-injurious autistic that you see on the AS promos" (no offense meant ... my son was this poster child at one time). The only criteria I've ever seen for being defined as 'high-functioning' is a child that is verbal (not communicative) and no cognitive delay ... which is a very low bar to set in my mind.

We've (they've) got to come up with a better diagnostic criteria that describes the functioning level of a child at the time of diagnosis yet still leaves room for a 'label' that will better describe that same child's functioning level as an adult. In other words, my son will always be Autistic ... technically he can never be consider as Aspie (no matter how high-functioning and independent he may become) because he was totally non-verbal, self-injurious and had significant cognitive delays at the time of diagnosis ... BUT ... perhaps he will become a Type 1 Autistic some day -vs- the Type 4 or low functioning autistic he was when he was diagnosed.

Or even better ... perhaps everyone will be just diagnosed with ASD. Instead of getting a specific 'label' to describe a person's functioning level or severity of impairment you'll just get a number ... like my son's Childhood Autism Rating Scale number of 48 at the time of diagnosis ... now he's considered more around a 28 -30. Those diagnosed as ASD with high scores qualify for more services ... those with lower scores qualify for fewer services because frankly, that's how it works now. If you're kid isn't delayed enough they don't qualify for the service in the public school system. And just because my kid's score at 8yo is 28 that doesn't mean that his score won't go back up to 48 by the time he's 18yo. There's a big difference between the demands of the world on an 8yo and an 18yo.

Anyway ... sorry so long ... can you tell I like this subject.

I'd love to hear your thoughts ... I know some of my ideas are crazy so I like to get feed back from others. :o It lets me know just how far off base I may or may not be.

I know the importance of the label for kids, especially those needing early intervention and school services. What I don't know is how is the label going to affect my son when he grows up. You guys live it everyday ... how does the diagnostic criteria make your life harder? How could it make your life easier?

Bren :)

[OZZIE-ROZIES-MA]

Brenda Lee I noticed you mentioned the CARS score... It's funny because I just got Rozie's report and her Autism score is lower because she's nonverbal... she was omitted in scoring on conversation ability and repetitive language and scores 46.

So, she scores less affected now than whenever she learns to speak.. for me an improvement but for the CARS score a potential increase in severity by another 8 pts.

[BrendaLee]

Alice ...

Who ever scored the test completed it incorrectly. Non-verbal should have received a score of 4 under communication. :eek:

Oh ... I just HATE IT when professionals don't follow instructions!!

Can you say, "difficultly with following instructions" ??!!?? :rolleyes:

I just ran across one of my son's old CARS the other day (I was digging thru old files preparing for an IEP meeting).

Frankly ... If done appropriately and if completed by several team members ... I've found the CARS to be RIGHT OWN with my son!! But again, I always made sure several team members completed one so that it wasn't just one person's subjective opinion. I took all of their scores and averaged it ... but still found it very interesting how the OT might score him higher in one area than the SLP might have.

Bren

[OZZIE-ROZIES-MA]

I didn't know that, I only have the results and the written summary. They also did the GARS test and scored Communication as N/A. You know the other funny thing (not haha) is this is a company that bills the gov't to see who qualifies for services and my guess is there's no N/A's on the bill. :D

[BrendaLee]

I've got my kids CARS and his GARS somewhere. Let me see if I can find it ... I'll be right back. :D

[BrendaLee]

Okay ... first, I just realized I made a mistake ... the scoring is 1-4, not 1-5 (which I corrected in my other post just in case ... I don't want to misinform anyone). It's been awhile since I reviewed the test. Also, I just realized his initial score wasn't a 58 ... it was a 48.5. Needless to say he didn't get "attention to details" from me! :o Sorry!

Anyway, here's the CARS ... there are two different communication categories ... XI. = Verbal, XII. = Nonverbal.

Verbal Communication:

4 = "Severely abnormal verbal communication. Meaningful speech is not used. The child may make infantile squeals, weird or animal-like sounds ... "

3.5 = somewhere developmentally in between 3 and 4

3 = "Moderately abnormal verbal communication. Speech may be absent. When present ... may be a mixture of ... jargon, echolalia ..."

Nonverbal Communication:

4 = "Severely abnormal use of nonverbal communication ... shows no awareness of the meanings associated with the gestures or facial expressions of others"

3.5 = somewhere developmentally in between 3 and 4

3 = "Moderately abnormal use of nonverbal communication ... unable to express needs or desires nonverbally ... cannot understand nonverbal communication of others"

My son initially scored a 3.5 in both categories. I think it was because he did understand some nonverbal gestures at that age and he did have some receptive language at that age as well as one echolalic word ... "butterfly". [Note to parents: When your kid's first and only word is 'butterfly" ... you might want to worry! ;) Plus ... he's been a bug man since!!]

Frankly ... I hate the GARS. It's a subjective diagnostic tool used primarily by the educational system (and I guess governmental system). It's not recommended as a primary diagnostic tool by medical professionals primarily responsible for diagnosing ASDs. As part of the GARS there is a "parent" addition that you should have been provided and there is also a 'teacher's' addition that should have been completed. All scores should be considered (both home and classroom) when determining if a child meets the test's definition of autistic.

In the GARS, under the "Communication" section, it states ... "If the person does not talk, sign or use any other form of communication, omit this subtest." BUT ... I think there should be a curved scoring system if this section is omitted!! Omitting this section alone could drop a score as much as 20 points!!!

Bren :)

[OZZIE-ROZIES-MA]

Thanks for looking those up Brenda Lee, that makes more sense... the GARS is kinda goofy. The tester asked me a bunch of questions when I was there so she must've been marking them on the tests and I recall filling in a questionaire. GARs she scored 33 but met 9 DSM criteria.

[Age926]

I love this topic!

I'm just a Mom ... I hope it's okay that I jump in ... I don't mean to be a party crasher. :o I've just really been dying to discuss this subject with ASD adults. :)

I have my own theories with how I'd like to see the diagnostic criteria change .. but for now ... as it is, I think there's two very distinct differences between Classic Autism and Aspergers.

#1 = Communication
#2 = Cognitive Development, Self-Help and appropriate Play Skills.

Now remember, the diagnostic criteria are written for children ... typically as young as 2 or 3 ... in my son's case he was 18 months. So ... we're talking about appropriate communication skills for the child at that age group based on language evaluation instruments preformed by SLPs ... not by observation alone. Also, we're talking about the appropriate cognition for a toddler or kid under 5 yo ... the curiosity necessary to explore ones environment, the self-help skills that should be developing, that type of thing.

When you're talking about two kids, both two years old ... there's a FLAMING difference between the Classic Autistic and the Asperger's kid. Although I don't think it's always the case with the PDD-NOS kid.

Clinically speaking ... in Autism there is ALWAYS a HUGE communication issue! No non-verbal attempts at communication ... no desire to communicate ... even if verbal, it's not used as a form to communicate with another, to initiate interaction or to request an item. Whereas in Asperger's there CAN NOT be this type of communication delay. In Asperger's, single-word requests or labeling by the age of 2 is technically not considered a 'clinically significant delay'.

In addition ... with Aspergers ... the child must demonstrate age appropriate cognition skills ... self-help skills and appropriate play skills.

For me, it's not about the fact that both labels have much in common ... it's about the fact that in order to receive a diagnosis of Asperger's the child CAN NOT be SIGNIFICANTLY impaired in the areas of communication, cognition, self-help and/or play skills. It's not about a child's potential to learn these things at which time the two labels don't look much different. It's about diagnosising a severe developmental issue ... by two years old a typically developmenting child should not be experiencing the complex combination of delays that are defined as Autism.

There's nothing that says that an Autistic MUST be cognitively delayed ... BUT it clearly states that an Aspie CAN NOT be cognitively delayed. In other words ... if all criteria are met but the child is cognitively delayed they should technically be diagnosed as Autistic ... WHY ... because there is no guarantee that therapy might address the cognitive delay therefore the child may always be cognitively delayed.

The problem with the diagnosis is that it doesn't work as well when diagnosing older spectrumers. You can't do a language assessment on a 20 year old and get an accurate picture of what their language skills at 2 years old were like ... other than parental report ... and frankly, that's unreliable compared to giving the same assessment to a two year old.

Plus ... High Functioning is not an official diagnosis ... it's just Autism. The whole High Functioning thing is something people like to throw around instead of saying, "my kid doesn't fit the standard stereotypical picture of the non-verbal, self-injurious autistic that you see on the AS promos" (no offense meant ... my son was this poster child at one time). The only criteria I've ever seen for being defined as 'high-functioning' is a child that is verbal (not communicative) and no cognitive delay ... which is a very low bar to set in my mind.

We've (they've) got to come up with a better diagnostic criteria that describes the functioning level of a child at the time of diagnosis yet still leaves room for a 'label' that will better describe that same child's functioning level as an adult. In other words, my son will always be Autistic ... technically he can never be consider as Aspie (no matter how high-functioning and independent he may become) because he was totally non-verbal, self-injurious and had significant cognitive delays at the time of diagnosis ... BUT ... perhaps he will become a Type 1 Autistic some day -vs- the Type 4 or low functioning autistic he was when he was diagnosed.

Or even better ... perhaps everyone will be just diagnosed with ASD. Instead of getting a specific 'label' to describe a person's functioning level or severity of impairment you'll just get a number ... like my son's Childhood Autism Rating Scale number of 48 at the time of diagnosis ... now he's considered more around a 28 -30. Those diagnosed as ASD with high scores qualify for more services ... those with lower scores qualify for fewer services because frankly, that's how it works now. If you're kid isn't delayed enough they don't qualify for the service in the public school system. And just because my kid's score at 8yo is 28 that doesn't mean that his score won't go back up to 48 by the time he's 18yo. There's a big difference between the demands of the world on an 8yo and an 18yo.

Anyway ... sorry so long ... can you tell I like this subject.

I'd love to hear your thoughts ... I know some of my ideas are crazy so I like to get feed back from others. :o It lets me know just how far off base I may or may not be.

I know the importance of the label for kids, especially those needing early intervention and school services. What I don't know is how is the label going to affect my son when he grows up. You guys live it everyday ... how does the diagnostic criteria make your life harder? How could it make your life easier?

Bren :)

Wow thats interesting, but its true, if i was 2 years old today, i would be labelled severely autistic, even my mother agrees with me on that one, I wasn't even running yet, didn't understand shapes, couldnt feed myself, defintely not potty trained, no communication through body, verbal, or any other way, rarely smiling, no interest in ppl at all. I was nasty, hated being touched, kept the nickname tiger from the age of 6months until i was about 5 because everytime I was picked up, tried to scratch your eyes out, bit you, no affection what so ever, headbanged 24-7.

I got the label high functioning now, because i learned to get some of the self help skills, still very much cognitively behind, i still line up toys haha, like the other day we were looking at my bfs matchbox cars, all i did was line them up, and spin them in circles haha, we even had competitions! Anyways, even doctors explained to me, that i will always be behind, especially cognitively, and my self help skills are still not at the highest ie...still can't do my own hair, dressing and undressing myself can sometimes be a problem, cooking yea i try haha, but each day i learn and grow more and more, just not as fast and as advanced as everybody else. So thats why i got the label as autism, instead of aspergers.

Which i really didn't think cognitively behind was a sign of autism rather then aspergers, i thought anybody on the spectrum was behind that way, so thats new to me! Thanks for your insight though brenda, really interesting. So i guess my label as autistic will always stay autistic, and not change hmmm.

[Callista]

BrendaLee still doesn't address the issue that, while autism and Asperger's look very different at age 2, they may look identical by the teen years... if the delay is the only difference, why not merge the diagnoses into one, and use subcategories? Yes, they look very different early on, because of the delay; but when they overlap so much--a low-functioning Aspie will be very much left in the dust by many high-functioning Kanner's auties--the total separation doesn't seem to make sense to me. (Also, insert lecture here about functioning levels being pretty nebulous and ill-defined in the first place, and me as well as many others having been both low and high functioning at various times during my life.)

My perspective is that of the adult; and when that speech delay is history; when what's left is so very like the eccentric speech of somebody who never had a delay; then the categories seem very arbitrary.

Maybe it's because they still classify it with "childhood disorders" rather than the Axis II lifelong conditions.

[bullet]

One of the best pieces of advice I had was when Tom was seen by a paediatrician who then referred him on to be assessed. She said that from what she could see it was pretty clear he was on the spectrum (and she then surprised me in a letter by saying she could see I was on the spectrum as well), but that to try and work out what category he would fit into was less important than focusing on his individual skills and difficulties and tailoring his help to those.

[PaulSpeaks]

If I was diagnosed at the age of 2 under that criteria I would have been diagnosed as severely autistic, because I was extremely aloof and did not speak a single word. I didn't even babble. Usually I would just repeatedely stack blocks or books into a tower.


Although Kanner recorded brilliant descriptions of the clinical features of autism, it was not until 1956 that he and Eisenberg published the Kanner criteria for early infantile autism, which included (16):

[LIST=1]
A profound lack of affective contact with other people
An anxious obsessive desire for the preservation of sameness in a child’s routine and environment
A fascination for objects that are handled with skill in fine motor movements
Mutism, or a kind of language that does not seem intended for interpersonal communication.
Good cognitive potential shown in feats of memory or skills on performance tests, especially the Seguin form board.

Kanner emphasised that the onset had to be from birth and before 30 months of age. In the same paper that listed these criteria, Kanner and Eisenberg modified the criteria by emphasising that two features were essential for the diagnosis: a profound lack of affective contact and repetitive, ritualistic behaviours which must be of the elaborate kind.

[willow668]

Wow thats interesting, but its true, if i was 2 years old today, i would be labelled severely autistic, even my mother agrees with me on that one, I wasn't even running yet, didn't understand shapes, couldnt feed myself, defintely not potty trained, no communication through body, verbal, or any other way, rarely smiling, no interest in ppl at all. I was nasty, hated being touched, kept the nickname tiger from the age of 6months until i was about 5 because everytime I was picked up, tried to scratch your eyes out, bit you, no affection what so ever, headbanged 24-7.

I got the label high functioning now, because i learned to get some of the self help skills, still very much cognitively behind, i still line up toys haha, like the other day we were looking at my bfs matchbox cars, all i did was line them up, and spin them in circles haha, we even had competitions! Anyways, even doctors explained to me, that i will always be behind, especially cognitively, and my self help skills are still not at the highest ie...still can't do my own hair, dressing and undressing myself can sometimes be a problem, cooking yea i try haha, but each day i learn and grow more and more, just not as fast and as advanced as everybody else. So thats why i got the label as autism, instead of aspergers.

Which i really didn't think cognitively behind was a sign of autism rather then aspergers, i thought anybody on the spectrum was behind that way, so thats new to me! Thanks for your insight though brenda, really interesting. So i guess my label as autistic will always stay autistic, and not change hmmm.


ok, I hate to sound really dumb...but what IS the difference between "high functioning" autism and Aspergers? :confused: My 5y/o was recently evaluated (does that count as a dx?) as being high functioning w/features of ADD (of course I nearly smacked the psych. who looked like she was going to term it ADHD, because he's NOT). And btw......it is a "provisional" diagnosis. I'm going to guess that this means the better they get to know him, it might change????:eek:
We're just getting "into" all this.....eval was nov.29th & here it is Jan & we JUST got the written report last friday (18th).:eek:

If I sound desperate....I am:p :p I SO need a "buddy" to kabitz with & gain some understanding thru.:o Anyone open for a new buddy?:D *giggles*

thanks for putting up with me;)
Willow

[Age926]

ok, I hate to sound really dumb...but what IS the difference between "high functioning" autism and Aspergers? :confused: My 5y/o was recently evaluated (does that count as a dx?) as being high functioning w/features of ADD (of course I nearly smacked the psych. who looked like she was going to term it ADHD, because he's NOT). And btw......it is a "provisional" diagnosis. I'm going to guess that this means the better they get to know him, it might change????:eek:
We're just getting "into" all this.....eval was nov.29th & here it is Jan & we JUST got the written report last friday (18th).:eek:

If I sound desperate....I am:p :p I SO need a "buddy" to kabitz with & gain some understanding thru.:o Anyone open for a new buddy?:D *giggles*

thanks for putting up with me;)
Willow

I was diagnosed with just classic autism, but since I can somewhat live independantly, they said I was more on the high functioning side. My diagnosis is still just autism, but I can drive, I have a bf so I consider myself HFA. The difference, no language delay in aspergers, no self help skill problems, or cognitive delay in aspergers, while HFA you have a language delay, and your self help skills are not at its best. I think thats how it goes, don't quote me hahaha, but I do know for sure, that most doctors diagnosis aspergers if the child has no language delay, has an IQ from normal-above normal, sometimes their also known as little professors. HFA is usually diagnosed when its clearly autism, but higher functioning, usually has a delay, and has a below average-average IQ.

Does that help? Its not a stupid question by the way, HFA and Aspergers is very confusing!

[bullet]

But it's more confusing than that, at least sometimes. I had no real language delay. My mum varies from telling me I was a little late, to I was reasonably early, but I know I was talking by the age of two years nine months at the very latest (and almost certaintly before) and I know my receptive language was fine, because I have memories of looking at my little newborn sister and thinking:
"Good god, isn't she bald?!" (yes, those exact words :rolleyes: :D ).
Now, I have some speech and communication issues. I used to talk extremely fast, but my mum worked on me with that to help me to slow down. Now I still have the same issues of rarely initiating talking, struggling to express wants and needs, having tangential speech plus several other aspects. But, when I do speak, I have always made sense (albeit once I was deciphered when I was a child).
But, I have very poor self help skills, really bad. I'm 32 and I still can't tie up my shoelaces. I can't do my hair properly and a lot of the time I forget to brush it. I have never had a day in which I have remembered to do all three tasks of brushing hair, teeth and washing face. Sometimes two on a good day. I frequently forget to eat, though this has lessened as I eat with the lads. Before the lads I would often forget to eat. I think that it's because with my lads, I don't know exactly how they are feeling, but logic determines that they need looking after and to go through the steps of looking after them. Feeding, clothing, keeping clean, all make sense because I know there's a "routine" to follow. So, I should get it with myself, but a lot of the time because I don't think about me or feel much about me I can't look at myself and think "right, my hair needs brushing". I need to see the hairbrush and if the hairbrush is out of sight I forget.
It was the one thing I held back from the psychiatrist when I went to be assessed. I was worried he'd think I was an awful mum if I told him the extent of my self help difficulties. I know the lads are looked after well and health visitors and teachers and friends know and say they're looked after well, but paranoid mum struck and whilst I didn't boast about how good I was at self help, I made sure I didn't draw attention to it either.

[Age926]

But it's more confusing than that, at least sometimes. I had no real language delay. My mum varies from telling me I was a little late, to I was reasonably early, but I know I was talking by the age of two years nine months at the very latest (and almost certaintly before) and I know my receptive language was fine, because I have memories of looking at my little newborn sister and thinking:
"Good god, isn't she bald?!" (yes, those exact words :rolleyes: :D ).
Now, I have some speech and communication issues. I used to talk extremely fast, but my mum worked on me with that to help me to slow down. Now I still have the same issues of rarely initiating talking, struggling to express wants and needs, having tangential speech plus several other aspects. But, when I do speak, I have always made sense (albeit once I was deciphered when I was a child).
But, I have very poor self help skills, really bad. I'm 32 and I still can't tie up my shoelaces. I can't do my hair properly and a lot of the time I forget to brush it. I have never had a day in which I have remembered to do all three tasks of brushing hair, teeth and washing face. Sometimes two on a good day. I frequently forget to eat, though this has lessened as I eat with the lads. Before the lads I would often forget to eat. I think that it's because with my lads, I don't know exactly how they are feeling, but logic determines that they need looking after and to go through the steps of looking after them. Feeding, clothing, keeping clean, all make sense because I know there's a "routine" to follow. So, I should get it with myself, but a lot of the time because I don't think about me or feel much about me I can't look at myself and think "right, my hair needs brushing". I need to see the hairbrush and if the hairbrush is out of sight I forget.
It was the one thing I held back from the psychiatrist when I went to be assessed. I was worried he'd think I was an awful mum if I told him the extent of my self help difficulties. I know the lads are looked after well and health visitors and teachers and friends know and say they're looked after well, but paranoid mum struck and whilst I didn't boast about how good I was at self help, I made sure I didn't draw attention to it either.

Yea I'm really confused with the whole thing too. I really just think they should put all diagnosis's into one big spectrum, like autism spectrum disorder. Doesn't matter if you have a delay, or problems with grooming, or whats ur IQ, you have autistic traits, could be mild, moderate or severe, thats how I look at it. I don't see aspergers as a lesser diagnosis, or pdd-nos or classic autism different all the time, every child is on the spectrum somewhere. See i've met pdd-nos children more severe then classic autism, and children with classic autism higher functioning then children with aspergers. So its soooo hard to tell these days! I say every individual on the spectrum has problems either way, even if they dont have a language delay, or even if their living in the real world, with a job, own house, family, still can soo many problems.

Autism is really seen as a childhood disorder also, it doesn't matter what doctors say, it matters up to the child and how the child adapts, and whether that child either becomes higher functioning, stays the same, or functioning enough. I've heard personally doctors saying yea your child probably won't ever speak, let alone live independantely, couple years down the road, the child is a chatterbox, looking at apts. Or the other way around, saw a kid, seemed very mild, doctors told the parents that you have nothing to worry about, he'll grow out of that autism soo soon. Saw the kid recently, seems to have regressed a ton, mother said something happened tragically, and set him back to a worse state of autism(by the way thought that wasn't possible, but it defintely is, not the only kid whom i've seen regress due to a sudden tragic event). So you really don't know whats going to happen to that autistic child. Thats why I think autism spectrum disorder is a better way to put it, because saying the child is severe now, but change in even a year, and then what all of a sudden has to get reevaluated for aspergers? Autism is a label, aspergers, pddnos is a label, it doesnt matter what the diagnosis is, it all falls under the spectrum.

[PaulSpeaks]

If my childhood was not taken into consideration I would be diagnosed as being Aspergers but childhood being considered and if you really wanted to be technical it would be a classic autism. My language development was in no doubt impaired as I learnt to walk before I could talk and of the bits I can remember I can clearly recall confusing what is means to be going "ta tas" (going out on a nice country drive in the car as I was extremely obsessed with cars) or having "din din" (lunch) and even simple words like "walk" and "talk" were confused.
I also have strong memories if thinking much more visually and in pictures rather than words. Like I would not think the word "ant" but the image of an ant crawing into a crack in the wall. I still do to this day think more visually.

[Age926]

If my childhood was not taken into consideration I would be diagnosed as being Aspergers but childhood being considered and if you really wanted to be technical it would be a classic autism. My language development was in no doubt impaired as I learnt to walk before I could talk and of the bits I can remember I can clearly recall confusing what is means to be going "ta tas" (going out on a nice country drive in the car as I was extremely obsessed with cars) or having "din din" (lunch) and even simple words like "walk" and "talk" were confused.
I also have strong memories if thinking much more visually and in pictures rather than words. Like I would not think the word "ant" but the image of an ant crawing into a crack in the wall. I still do to this day think more visually.

Yes i was the same way, called my dog da da, and when it came to eating, i would say la la, which i used to describe turtles lol. So yea i know what you mean, but even if it was autism spectrum disorder, you would still be classifed under severe. As you got older instead of changing the diagnosis completely, it would just change to now moderate. Do you know what i mean? like instead of being diagnosed with autism at age 2, and have to go get reevaluated like 15 times to finally get a new diagnosis of aspergers, it would just be just a pain in the butt. I know a family whom had the diagnosis of autism, then pdd-nos, now their doctors are looking at it possibly being aspergers now, like what? so what does that mean for that poor kid, he went from severe to high functioning, do you know where i coming from? That mother went to several types of doctors just to get the diagnosis of autism, then another several because somebody pointed out that he wasn't very autistic, and then they changed it to pdd-nos, then later on in life, she had to go to several doctors again, because the label pdd-nos wasn't guarenteeing them enough therapy time, which i dont know how that makes sense, finally now its aspergers, like whoa, i feel bad for that family!

[BrendaLee]

I think you guys bring up a lot of good points!!

One being that it's difficult to get physicians to even follow the existing diagnostic criteria (i.e. changing labels after a child has responded to therapy). That's like saying that a diabetic is no longer diabetic because they take their insulin ... or at least that's what it's like to me.

But this is what I don't get ... and I mean ... I need to understand this but I don't, right now.

Once you're an adult ... why does it matter what label you have (Autism -vs- Aspergers)?

In my state ... now that they have passed the autism act and have included everything under "Autism Spectrum Disorder" ... if you applied for assistance the only recognized label would be "Autism Spectrum Disorder" ... they're not even distinguishing between the three diagnostic labels anymore.

That's why I like the idea of a rating scale ... kinda like the autism rating scale. When you're evaluated you get a point for each symptom you exhibit with things like language, socialization and self-help skills having a greater point value than something like stimming. I think it provides more information than just a label. Maybe something like this ...

0-20 points = Indistinguishable
21-30 Points = Mild ASD
31-40 Points = Moderate ASD
41-50 Points = Severe ASD

I just don't know how the label affects an adult and that's what I need to learn.

Now that all of the categories are included under the "Autism Spectrum Disorders" category, I'm worried about stuff like insurance coverage and discrimination. Whereas evidence has shown that less than 20% of those diagnosed with Autism will go on to live an independent life ... statistics are far different for those with Aspergers and PDD-NOS.

I'm concerned that a kid who was diagnosed as Aspergers at 8 yo will get the therapy he needs and grow up to get a job and find a life partner but will not be able to get insurance coverage. That person would not qualify for assistance because they would be too high functioning and yet would be discriminated against because of a childhood developmental disorder. That's what I'm afraid of!!

On one hand I think some type of rating system would be good ... but then again, long-term outcomes are far better for the Aspergers and PDD-NOS population so I don't know how that type of system might harm them.

Maybe there is a benefit to being labeled Asperger's over just lumping everyone into an Autism category.

I just need someone to help me understand ... from an adult spectrumer's point of view ... how one label -vs- the other really helps or hurts in one's everyday life.

Bren

[willow668]

If my childhood was not taken into consideration I would be diagnosed as being Aspergers but childhood being considered and if you really wanted to be technical it would be a classic autism. My language development was in no doubt impaired as I learnt to walk before I could talk and of the bits I can remember I can clearly recall confusing what is means to be going "ta tas" (going out on a nice country drive in the car as I was extremely obsessed with cars) or having "din din" (lunch) and even simple words like "walk" and "talk" were confused.
I also have strong memories if thinking much more visually and in pictures rather than words. Like I would not think the word "ant" but the image of an ant crawing into a crack in the wall. I still do to this day think more visually.

:confused: doesn't everybody think visually:confused: Yikes. (nope, not being a complete moron here....I mean that honestly ~if a bit of poking "fun" at myself:o ) hmmmm.....ya know....the more I hear/read.....the more I think I should be dx'd as being on the spectrum:o

[OZZIE-ROZIES-MA]

I wanted to ask what you think... when I look at the DSM-IV it says in the criteria ...Autistic Disorder....
II) Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years:
(A) social interaction
(B) language as used in social communication
(C) symbolic or imaginative play

I'm not sure why but Asperger's DSM-IV doesn't have that (above) section... I would have thought it would have A&C?

[Age926]

I think you guys bring up a lot of good points!!

One being that it's difficult to get physicians to even follow the existing diagnostic criteria (i.e. changing labels after a child has responded to therapy). That's like saying that a diabetic is no longer diabetic because they take their insulin ... or at least that's what it's like to me.

But this is what I don't get ... and I mean ... I need to understand this but I don't, right now.

Once you're an adult ... why does it matter what label you have (Autism -vs- Aspergers)?

In my state ... now that they have passed the autism act and have included everything under "Autism Spectrum Disorder" ... if you applied for assistance the only recognized label would be "Autism Spectrum Disorder" ... they're not even distinguishing between the three diagnostic labels anymore.

That's why I like the idea of a rating scale ... kinda like the autism rating scale. When you're evaluated you get a point for each symptom you exhibit with things like language, socialization and self-help skills having a greater point value than something like stimming. I think it provides more information than just a label. Maybe something like this ...

0-20 points = Indistinguishable
21-30 Points = Mild ASD
31-40 Points = Moderate ASD
41-50 Points = Severe ASD

I just don't know how the label affects an adult and that's what I need to learn.

Now that all of the categories are included under the "Autism Spectrum Disorders" category, I'm worried about stuff like insurance coverage and discrimination. Whereas evidence has shown that less than 20% of those diagnosed with Autism will go on to live an independent life ... statistics are far different for those with Aspergers and PDD-NOS.

I'm concerned that a kid who was diagnosed as Aspergers at 8 yo will get the therapy he needs and grow up to get a job and find a life partner but will not be able to get insurance coverage. That person would not qualify for assistance because they would be too high functioning and yet would be discriminated against because of a childhood developmental disorder. That's what I'm afraid of!!

On one hand I think some type of rating system would be good ... but then again, long-term outcomes are far better for the Aspergers and PDD-NOS population so I don't know how that type of system might harm them.

Maybe there is a benefit to being labeled Asperger's over just lumping everyone into an Autism category.

I just need someone to help me understand ... from an adult spectrumer's point of view ... how one label -vs- the other really helps or hurts in one's everyday life.

Bren

It would be a definte benefit putting everybody in one catergory, everybody could get the equal treatment, and nobody would be known as rainman, or bill gates, everybody will just be autistic. There will be no stereotypes, just ASDs, nobody will know by looking if there severe or mild, do you know what i mean? AS for insurance, yea defintely that person who now has the label of ASD in adulthood would still get the same kind of help anybody else, rather then a person with autism always getting covered while a person with aspergers doesn't. What state do you live in that does that, they say in 2010, all around will start doing that, everywhere, every country, state, anything will all about ASDs.

[OZZIE-ROZIES-MA]

Oh yeah... I found this too:

Does DSM-IV Asperger's Disorder Exist?
Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology, June, 2001 by Susan Dickerson Mayes, Susan L. Calhoun, Dana L. Crites
Susan Dickerson Mayes [1,2]

Susan L. Calhoun [1]

Dana L. Crites [1]

DSM-IV criteria for autistic and Asperger's disorders were applied to 157 children with clinical diagnoses of autism or Asperger's disorder. All children met the DSM-IV criteria for autistic disorder and none met criteria for Asperger's disorder, including those with normal intelligence and absence of early speech delay. The reason for this was that all children had social impairment and restricted and repetitive behavior and interests (required DSM-IV symptoms for both autistic and Asperger's disorders) and all had a DSM-IV communication impairment (which then qualified them for a diagnosis of autistic disorder and not Asperger's disorder). Communication problems exhibited by all children were impaired conversational speech or repetitive, stereotyped, or idiosyncratic speech (or both), which are DSM-IV criteria for autism. These findings are consistent with those of 5 other studies and indicate that a DSM-IV diagnosis of Asperger's disorder is unlikely or impossible.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0902/is_3_29/ai_76558499

[Age926]

I wanted to ask what you think... when I look at the DSM-IV it says in the criteria ...Autistic Disorder....
II) Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years:
(A) social interaction
(B) language as used in social communication
(C) symbolic or imaginative play

I'm not sure why but Asperger's DSM-IV doesn't have that (above) section... I would have thought it would have A&C?

I would say A and C also, it all comes down to language, and self skills, and IQ basically!

http://www.ourspecialkids.org/criteria.html

Individuals with Asperger's Disorder do not have clinically significant delays in cognitive development or in age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood (Criterion E). Because early language and cognitive skills are within normal limits in the first 3 years of life, parents or caregivers are not usually concerned about the child's development during that time, although upon detailed interviewing they may recall unusual behaviors. The child may be described as talking before walking, and indeed parents may believe the child to be precocious (e.g.,with a rich or "adult" vocabulary). Although subtle social problems may exist, parents or caregivers often are not concerned until the child begins to attend a preschool or is exposed to same-age peers may become apparent.

[PaulSpeaks]

Yes i was the same way, called my dog da da, and when it came to eating, i would say la la, which i used to describe turtles lol. So yea i know what you mean, but even if it was autism spectrum disorder, you would still be classifed under severe. As you got older instead of changing the diagnosis completely, it would just change to now moderate. Do you know what i mean? like instead of being diagnosed with autism at age 2, and have to go get reevaluated like 15 times to finally get a new diagnosis of aspergers, it would just be just a pain in the butt. I know a family whom had the diagnosis of autism, then pdd-nos, now their doctors are looking at it possibly being aspergers now, like what? so what does that mean for that poor kid, he went from severe to high functioning, do you know where i coming from? That mother went to several types of doctors just to get the diagnosis of autism, then another several because somebody pointed out that he wasn't very autistic, and then they changed it to pdd-nos, then later on in life, she had to go to several doctors again, because the label pdd-nos wasn't guarenteeing them enough therapy time, which i dont know how that makes sense, finally now its aspergers, like whoa, i feel bad for that family!

Hi Age926
Did you ever get into that phase of head banging or other forms of self harm like biting one self as I did. I was into that in a big way as I could not express myself verbally and I got so frustrated I would bang my head to such an extent I would have to be taken to the base hospital to have it sutured and still bare the physical scars on my head to this day. These days many parents put helmets on their autistic children for the same reason so they well not hurt themselves.

[Callista]

I used to smack my arms or hands against stuff when I was a little kid; but that changed to the more typical scratching or cutting when I was a teen. Thankfully I never hit my head hard enough to cause bruising. Well, not more than a couple of times, anyway. It wasn't a problem with communication, though; I was more trying to cope with overload--often transitions or unexpected events or sometimes sensory/social demands. So it's not just communication frustration that ends up with self-injury.

I don't see a problem with helmets. Safe head-banging? Go for it. Some autistic adults keep helmets for when they need to head-bang, too.

Alice-- your "Does DSM-IV Asperger's Disorder Exist?": If you evaluated me, I'd fit criteria for autistic disorder, too. I think it takes a mild case of Asperger's--somebody whose speech is completely normal--not to also fit autistic disorder. That's because the two are just so very similar--except for the early speech delay.

[Age926]

Hi Age926
Did you ever get into that phase of head banging or other forms of self harm like biting one self as I did. I was into that in a big way as I could not express myself verbally and I got so frustrated I would bang my head to such an extent I would have to be taken to the base hospital to have it sutured and still bare the physical scars on my head to this day. These days many parents put helmets on their autistic children for the same reason so they well not hurt themselves.


Haha, wow you sound exactly like me! I still bite myself, i still headbang, i did it to the extreme when i was growing up, i threw myself on the ground headbanged until i knocked myself out, they tried like bicycle helmets growing up, broke through them as well haha. Somebody said once that their child is a poster child, i would def say i was a poster child, considering the amount of self injurious behaviors i have done to myself. The days i was non-verbal i could say im ten times worse:(!

[PaulSpeaks]

My Mother when she was up in her bedroom, upstairs sometimes heard a sickening thudding hammering sound, which happened to be me outside in the back yard banging my head in the concrete pavement as hard as I could as I was having a meltdown. She had to immediately run down stairs to my rescue before I could do any serious damage concussing myself.

The last time I head banged my head was October last year with a dispute with my sister when I badly dinted my her car through head banged it. I had to be taken off to the hospital with a CT scan but just as well it was clear. My sister just screamed about the damage to her car after I used my head as a wrecking ball on it. My emotions certainly had gotten the better of me on that day but I still usually have repetitive thoughts of throwing myself backwards me head when I lose it and I struggle to regain composure.

[autismdiva]

My Mother when she was up in her bedroom, upstairs sometimes heard a sickening thudding hammering sound, which happened to be me outside in the back yard banging my head in the concrete pavement as hard as I could as I was having a meltdown. She had to immediately run down stairs to my rescue before I could do any serious damage concussing myself.

The last time I head banged my head was October last year with a dispute with my sister when I badly dinted my her car through head banged it. I had to be taken off to the hospital with a CT scan but just as well it was clear. My sister just screamed about the damage to her car after I used my head as a wrecking ball on it. My emotions certainly had gotten the better of me on that day but I still usually have repetitive thoughts of throwing myself backwards me head when I lose it and I struggle to regain composure.

My goodness (about the heavy duty head banging). I read parts of your web page, Paul. I was very impressed with it. I can imagine how it felt for your mom to feel the thud from upstairs... I'm glad you're ok.
:)

My ASD kid never head banged, and as far as I know I never did that kind of hammering head banging when I was little.

Age926, that's scary (breaking bike helmets). I'm glad you are ok, too.:)

[bullet]

I wanted to ask what you think... when I look at the DSM-IV it says in the criteria ...Autistic Disorder....
II) Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years:
(A) social interaction
(B) language as used in social communication
(C) symbolic or imaginative play

I'm not sure why but Asperger's DSM-IV doesn't have that (above) section... I would have thought it would have A&C?

Yes, that puzzles me as well. From what my mum has told me it is highly likely I would have fitted into A and C before three years. Social interaction difficulties still continue, but I did go onto develop a very good imagination (I am lucky in that I "hear" words and see films of everything I'm thinking of in my head all the time), with the only possible abnormal functioning being that whilst I can imagine myself in any given scenario, I can't imagine myself in another role.

[PaulSpeaks]

After the age of ten I still continued with profound problems with communication and social interaction but I developed much better imagination. Especially visual imagination which is why I like doing photography. But unfortunately I still behind the eight ball with verbal imagination which is one reason I find it so difficult to sustain an ad lib conversation with anybody.

[bullet]

Daft question, but what is verbal imagination?

[Age926]

My Mother when she was up in her bedroom, upstairs sometimes heard a sickening thudding hammering sound, which happened to be me outside in the back yard banging my head in the concrete pavement as hard as I could as I was having a meltdown. She had to immediately run down stairs to my rescue before I could do any serious damage concussing myself.

The last time I head banged my head was October last year with a dispute with my sister when I badly dinted my her car through head banged it. I had to be taken off to the hospital with a CT scan but just as well it was clear. My sister just screamed about the damage to her car after I used my head as a wrecking ball on it. My emotions certainly had gotten the better of me on that day but I still usually have repetitive thoughts of throwing myself backwards me head when I lose it and I struggle to regain composure.

Yea paulspeaks, i was just as worse as you, broke through at least ten walls, broke through doors, used the bash my head until blood came out with glass bottles, slammed my head through my bulked, haven't headbanged a car yet, except the inside, been to get mris and catscans all my life as well, even have brain damage due to it, and even doctors told my mother that my head is stronger then a brick, their amazed i haven't killed myself yet. I even split my head open in friendlys by headbanging, woo did that scare ppl haha. I still headbang, but not near as bad, just against walls, my bed, or i just hit myself in the head repetively. I'm sorry you've been put through hell as well, hey that rhymed lol, i think i can honestly say i've finally met somebody whos head is as hard as mine haha.

My goodness (about the heavy duty head banging). I read parts of your web page, Paul. I was very impressed with it. I can imagine how it felt for your mom to feel the thud from upstairs... I'm glad you're ok.
:)

My ASD kid never head banged, and as far as I know I never did that kind of hammering head banging when I was little.

Age926, that's scary (breaking bike helmets). I'm glad you are ok, too.:)

Autismdiva, yea it is, doctors always said i had a hard head hahaha

[Age926]

After the age of ten I still continued with profound problems with communication and social interaction but I developed much better imagination. Especially visual imagination which is why I like doing photography. But unfortunately I still behind the eight ball with verbal imagination which is one reason I find it so difficult to sustain an ad lib conversation with anybody.

Yea i would like to know also what is verbal imagination? I'm amazing with visual, but verbal yea mind as well be a foreign language because i'm totally clueless.

You know its funny, somebody said on another thread, the difference between autistic disorder and aspergers is that people with autistic disorder still have serious problems with speech even adulthood, while people with aspergers may have problems with speech, like stuttering, stammering, but not near as severe as somebody with autistic disorder.

I have sooooooooo many problems talking its unbelievable, can't get my words sometimes, can't figure out what word goes to what object, can't put sentences together well still, sometimes i can do pretty well, but then theres times i mind as well be nonverbal again haha. Yesterday i went non-verbal for like 30mins ah, after having a huge sensory overload, i like couldn't get what i wanted to say out, only weird noises came out, my brain just took a leave of absences without my consent, and there i was, a complete mute haha, i swear i need to go buy a new brain, this one just has a mind of its own lol, if that made any sense at all haha.

[BrendaLee]

... my brain just took a leave of absences without my consent, and there i was, a complete mute haha, i swear i need to go buy a new brain, this one just has a mind of its own lol, if that made any sense at all haha.

LOL!!! :D

Age926 ... you have such a good sense of humor about yourself!! That's a very good thing ... laughter helps us all get thru the tough times!!

I've been trying to teach my son that it's alright to make mistakes ... that no one is perfect and everybody mucks it up sometimes. One day I had a total brain fart ... I wasn't paying attention to something my son had done (I think he was working on homework) and I said something stupid like, "you need to hurry up and finish that if you want to watch your cartoon".

He just looked at me like, "hello ... are you an idiot!!" 'cause he had already finished, I just didn't realize it. Anyway ... he's 8yo and I couldn't say to him, "Sorry, Mom had a brain fart!!" so instead I said, "Oh no ... I think my brain went on vacation there for a second ... sorry."

Now that's our little joke. He takes great pleasure in telling me my brain must be on vacation because I'm wrong!! Plus, it gives him something to say ... something to laugh at when his brain doesn't do what he wants it to do! What's some kid gonna say to him when he responds with that comment ... I mean, we all have brain farts, right??!!?? :D

As far as verbal imagination. For my son at 8yo ... his verbal imagination is pretending out loud ... ya know what I mean. He'll have his two robots and he will be verbally roll playing from both perspectives (which this is very new to him). He'll talk in one voice for one robot and then assume an entirely different voice and tone and talk for the other robot. Like ... "shields up, the alien ship is armed and ready to fire ... lock the lasers" and then the other robot says, "lasers locked, shields up but the time warp energy driver is down Captain ... what do we do?". That type of pretending, or telling a story verbally.

For me, adult verbal imagination means being able to carry on a bullsh!t conversation. Ya know ... standing there talking to someone that you could really care less about talking too ... standing there saying, "oh, I just love your purse, where did you buy that" ... "oh, I love that store" ... when really you could care less about her purse and you really hate that store because the sales ladies are sooo snobby but you say something nice just to keep the conversation going. You're pretending to be interested, you're pretending to share that person's point of view, you're pretending for the sake of being socially correct.

In my son's world ... that's lying. Even for me ... I find that hard to do. I'm just not into the BS kinda of conversation and you probably can tell that from my post here on the board. I usually only make post that are factual in nature ... have a clear purpose. Whereas I very rarely post on 'My Thread' ... not because I don't think it's funny or fun but because by the time I think of something funny to say, someone else has already said it and it just feels stupid to just repeat what someone else said just so I can say that I participated.

I think that people misunderstand autistics and say that they don't know how to be social when really ... I think it's all about sensory and language. My son's not socially impaired ... he just doesn't understand why you have to actually say out loud what seems to him to be sooooooo obvious ... or why you can't say out loud what seems to be soooooo obvious.

For example ... let's say I cut my finger while chopping veggies ... my son's not going to say to me, "oh Mom ... are you okay ... does it hurt?" ... cause frankly, he knows it hurts, he knows it's suppose to hurt and he knows that when someone is hurt, they're not okay!! I mean, come on ... think about it. Alot of what we're expected to say to people in order to be considered social is really just a bunch of BS. :o

Or here's a better one ... let's say your sitting in a restaurant and the guy at the table behind you farts really loud! :eek: Well ... my son would probably say, "Man ... did you hear that guy fart? That's disgusting!!" Well ... he did fart pretty loud ... it's not like it was a big secret or something! So ... what's so wrong with that, right?? But, in a socially conforming world ... you're not suppose to talk about stuff like that ... you're suppose to pretend that it didn't happen and if you do talk about it then you're considered the one that did something wrong ... not the guy who just farted in your face during dinner!! :rolleyes:

Frankly ... in the end ... through out adulthood ... I expect that my son will always think this way ... it's in his DNA ... it's just the way his brain works. Perhaps science should take a different perspective and consider that an autistic brain is just a higher order of thinking and in my son's case ... he's just cut out all of the BS language and gets right to the point.

I also think that when he has those moments of overload ... it's really his brain doing this massive search for answers and words. I swear, I can look in his eyes and it's like watching the wheels in his brain grind away. His mind is doing this super computer search thru a million pieces of data looking for the correct response for that particular situation, with that particular type of person and verbal communication just gets cut off while all of the other systems are searching ... does that makes sense??!!??

I told my husband ... I think my son's brain is operating on DOS ... not windows, cause it's the multi-processing that falls apart ... not the individual systems. And for those that are old enough to remember life before windows ... there was a simple beauty about DOS.

Perhaps a better comparison would be that he's a MAC not a PC!! :D Really ... he's far more user friendly then a PC ... ya just gotta understand the language and know the right buttons to push!! ;)

Head-banging ... yep ... he was a banger!! Our therapist told me not to buy him a helmet ... instead they told me to buy protective mats so he couldn't bang his head on the tile floor (my entire house at the time was tile floors). So we did ... I bought gym quality rubber squares and covered my entire living room floor (which at the time he was only about 15 months old and wasn't walking so he pretty much stay in that area). Anyway ... the floor helped protect his head but still provided him some feedback so he didn't try and bang even harder. Eventually when he started walking and running ... we started calling him "The Ram" because he'd stand there like a little ram and then take off and head-butt the wall ... his way of working around the rubber floor! Amazingly ... he survived a very bad head banging incident with my Dad's brick fireplace hearth ... literally knocked himself out and bleed from the forehead. The only good thing about it was apparently he made what ever neurological connection he needed to make because he's never banged since. :o

Bren :)

[Age926]

LOL!!! :D

Age926 ... you have such a good sense of humor about yourself!! That's a very good thing ... laughter helps us all get thru the tough times!!

I've been trying to teach my son that it's alright to make mistakes ... that no one is perfect and everybody mucks it up sometimes. One day I had a total brain fart ... I wasn't paying attention to something my son had done (I think he was working on homework) and I said something stupid like, "you need to hurry up and finish that if you want to watch your cartoon".

He just looked at me like, "hello ... are you an idiot!!" 'cause he had already finished, I just didn't realize it. Anyway ... he's 8yo and I couldn't say to him, "Sorry, Mom had a brain fart!!" so instead I said, "Oh no ... I think my brain went on vacation there for a second ... sorry."

Now that's our little joke. He takes great pleasure in telling me my brain must be on vacation because I'm wrong!! Plus, it gives him something to say ... something to laugh at when his brain doesn't do what he wants it to do! What's some kid gonna say to him when he responds with that comment ... I mean, we all have brain farts, right??!!?? :D

As far as verbal imagination. For my son at 8yo ... his verbal imagination is pretending out loud ... ya know what I mean. He'll have his two robots and he will be verbally roll playing from both perspectives (which this is very new to him). He'll talk in one voice for one robot and then assume an entirely different voice and tone and talk for the other robot. Like ... "shields up, the alien ship is armed and ready to fire ... lock the lasers" and then the other robot says, "lasers locked, shields up but the time warp energy driver is down Captain ... what do we do?". That type of pretending, or telling a story verbally.

For me, adult verbal imagination means being able to carry on a bullsh!t conversation. Ya know ... standing there talking to someone that you could really care less about talking too ... standing there saying, "oh, I just love your purse, where did you buy that" ... "oh, I love that store" ... when really you could care less about her purse and you really hate that store because the sales ladies are sooo snobby but you say something nice just to keep the conversation going. You're pretending to be interested, you're pretending to share that person's point of view, you're pretending for the sake of being socially correct.

In my son's world ... that's lying. Even for me ... I find that hard to do. I'm just not into the BS kinda of conversation and you probably can tell that from my post here on the board. I usually only make post that are factual in nature ... have a clear purpose. Whereas I very rarely post on 'My Thread' ... not because I don't think it's funny or fun but because by the time I think of something funny to say, someone else has already said it and it just feels stupid to just repeat what someone else said just so I can say that I participated.

I think that people misunderstand autistics and say that they don't know how to be social when really ... I think it's all about sensory and language. My son's not socially impaired ... he just doesn't understand why you have to actually say out loud what seems to him to be sooooooo obvious ... or why you can't say out loud what seems to be soooooo obvious.

For example ... let's say I cut my finger while chopping veggies ... my son's not going to say to me, "oh Mom ... are you okay ... does it hurt?" ... cause frankly, he knows it hurts, he knows it's suppose to hurt and he knows that when someone is hurt, they're not okay!! I mean, come on ... think about it. Alot of what we're expected to say to people in order to be considered social is really just a bunch of BS. :o

Or here's a better one ... let's say your sitting in a restaurant and the guy at the table behind you farts really loud! :eek: Well ... my son would probably say, "Man ... did you hear that guy fart? That's disgusting!!" Well ... he did fart pretty loud ... it's not like it was a big secret or something! So ... what's so wrong with that, right?? But, in a socially conforming world ... you're not suppose to talk about stuff like that ... you're suppose to pretend that it didn't happen and if you do talk about it then you're considered the one that did something wrong ... not the guy who just farted in your face during dinner!! :rolleyes:

Frankly ... in the end ... through out adulthood ... I expect that my son will always think this way ... it's in his DNA ... it's just the way his brain works. Perhaps science should take a different perspective and consider that an autistic brain is just a higher order of thinking and in my son's case ... he's just cut out all of the BS language and gets right to the point.

I also think that when he has those moments of overload ... it's really his brain doing this massive search for answers and words. I swear, I can look in his eyes and it's like watching the wheels in his brain grind away. His mind is doing this super computer search thru a million pieces of data looking for the correct response for that particular situation, with that particular type of person and verbal communication just gets cut off while all of the other systems are searching ... does that makes sense??!!??

I told my husband ... I think my son's brain is operating on DOS ... not windows, cause it's the multi-processing that falls apart ... not the individual systems. And for those that are old enough to remember life before windows ... there was a simple beauty about DOS.

Perhaps a better comparison would be that he's a MAC not a PC!! :D Really ... he's far more user friendly then a PC ... ya just gotta understand the language and know the right buttons to push!! ;)

Head-banging ... yep ... he was a banger!! Our therapist told me not to buy him a helmet ... instead they told me to buy protective mats so he couldn't bang his head on the tile floor (my entire house at the time was tile floors). So we did ... I bought gym quality rubber squares and covered my entire living room floor (which at the time he was only about 15 months old and wasn't walking so he pretty much stay in that area). Anyway ... the floor helped protect his head but still provided him some feedback so he didn't try and bang even harder. Eventually when he started walking and running ... we started calling him "The Ram" because he'd stand there like a little ram and then take off and head-butt the wall ... his way of working around the rubber floor! Amazingly ... he survived a very bad head banging incident with my Dad's brick fireplace hearth ... literally knocked himself out and bleed from the forehead. The only good thing about it was apparently he made what ever neurological connection he needed to make because he's never banged since. :o

Bren :)


Hehe, thanks brenda, you have a good sense of humor yourself hehe, you know its funny when ur sitting staring at a computer and you chuckle so loud even the cat gives u a funny look haha. I use to sweat the small stuff i guess u could say, always getting mad at myself, because i cant be like everybody else, because everybody was achieving while i was failing, or how advanced everybody is around me, and how i cant ever do anything right, but then one day i just was like why, why am i beating myself up, who cares? this is who i am, this is how god put me in this world, in order to get happiness i need to learn to accept me, accept that i'm slower, and that its harder for me to do everything, but most important learn to laugh even at myself. Ok this is a from a fav movie on mine, but i have it written down on a piece of paper on my wall.... three things to always know and keep in mind--->
Paradox- Lifes a mystery
Humor- Keep a good humor about yourself
Change- Know nothing stays the same

I keep uplifting quotes all around my room in little notepad paper thingies haha, just to remind me everyday, it helps a lot :), Maybe you can keep fav movie uplifting quotes around the room as well, and point them out to your son? Another fav quote of mine is "you try, you fail, you try, you fail, but the only true failure, is when you stop trying!" its from disneys haunted mansion hehe!


Anyways thanks for clearing that up about verbal imagination, now that i think about it, i guess i do that hmm, aint that something haha. Oh and thats a great idea about headbanging, i learned when i need to headbang to quickly run in my room and headbang against my tempurmedic pillow, good headbanging pillow hehehe :D!

[bullet]

Thank you for the verbal imagination explanation Brenda :). I did used to tell stories to my little sister, used to think for a minute then say what I saw in my mind. The vast majority of my imaginative play was done internally though. I mean, I'd have the toys, but I'd often just appear to be doing nowt much with them. Eg I had a toy hippo with three tassell on its tail and I'd spend ages just flicking the tassells back and forth. What I was doing was pretending the tassells were Cinderella and her Ugly Sisters, but as I wasn't speaking it wouldn't have been apparent to anyone else.
I don't get the point of the verbal imagination example you gave for adults. I won't be rude, but I won't pretend to like it either.
Age26, I find there's plenty of times (ie almost everyday) when speech becomes impossible for me. I hold onto the speech I do have, because I am very grateful for it) but I don't think a day has passed when I have wanted to say something and haven't been able to get the words out. This is usually when I have to initiate talking, so I know things are really bad when even answering someone is hard :rolleyes:

[Age926]

Thank you for the verbal imagination explanation Brenda :). I did used to tell stories to my little sister, used to think for a minute then say what I saw in my mind. The vast majority of my imaginative play was done internally though. I mean, I'd have the toys, but I'd often just appear to be doing nowt much with them. Eg I had a toy hippo with three tassell on its tail and I'd spend ages just flicking the tassells back and forth. What I was doing was pretending the tassells were Cinderella and her Ugly Sisters, but as I wasn't speaking it wouldn't have been apparent to anyone else.
I don't get the point of the verbal imagination example you gave for adults. I won't be rude, but I won't pretend to like it either.
Age26, I find there's plenty of times (ie almost everyday) when speech becomes impossible for me. I hold onto the speech I do have, because I am very grateful for it) but I don't think a day has passed when I have wanted to say something and haven't been able to get the words out. This is usually when I have to initiate talking, so I know things are really bad when even answering someone is hard :rolleyes:


Yea i hate when that i cant still express myself verbally good at all, my nt bf is always saying communication communication i'm like huh? lol, yesterday i was very proud of him! I got very upset, ok i still get upset or mad and i dont know why it just comes, like i say my brain has a mind of its own haha. Anyways he noticed sitting in the other room i was getting upset, so quickly got up and walked to me, squating down because if he stands its threatening idk y i'm much more calmer when somebody squats to talk to me, and goes what is it? I just look away and say LONE OW, ok i think that was suppose to be leave me alone now lol, and i think he knew that hahah. Then i walked into my room and got into bed all upset, and he goes and sits by my bed, and goes "are you hungry, want me to make you something?" it was like a siren goes off in my brain, yaya food, yes, i sit up and flap and say, eeee lol meaning yes hahaha. So i wanted pastina, he tried his hardest to make the same way as my mother, did really good too.

Its crazy how he understands me, and works with me, and knows how avoid a meltdown haha. Hes going to be a good daddy one day to an autie hahaha, i keep saying that, hes like oh gosh, i hope its a verrrry high functioning savant autie, i'm yea eh whatever pops out lol. Sorry for that looong story, i guess i was trying to elaborate how my speech is sooooo messed up haha, next time i'll make sure to make it short but sweeet :D !

[PaulSpeaks]

LOL!!! :D

Amazingly ... he survived a very bad head banging incident with my Dad's brick fireplace hearth ... literally knocked himself out and bleed from the forehead. The only good thing about it was apparently he made what ever neurological connection he needed to make because he's never banged since. :o

Bren :)

Reminds me of when I was about three years old. I had a real fascination for things that made a noise when you turned the handle. I discovered a rusty old door bell and I started driving everyone crazy turning the handle making as much racket as I could. The house keeper took it off me and I went into such a headbanging frenzy I staggered around everywhere vomiting through the concussion of it. That was the last headbanging episode for years